CC#30: The Interview Episode w/ Principal Panel of Whittaker, Cannon, Craft, and Wiley

In this episode, principals from Andover, Ottawa, Ellsworth, and Olathe, and a combined 57 years of administrative experience, discuss the interview process. Discussion spans from moment of first contact with a candidate all the way through the job offer and this panel shines light on the nuance of this process, their favorite interview questions, biggest interview turn-offs, and the method to their own "interview madness".

 

The Principal Panel

Contact Kelly Whittaker: whittakerk@usd290.org

X: @kelwhitt217

Contact John Cannon: jcannon@usd327.org

Connect on X: @BearcatPrin

Contact Leslianne Craft: craftl1@usd385.org

Connect on X: @leswatso

Mike Wiley: mwileyct@olatheschools.org

X: @KSUWiley

Rick Sola (host): rfsola@olatheschools.org

X: @MrRickSola

 

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The mission of the Kansas Principals Association, an organization committed to educational excellence and the lifelong success of all students, is to develop and support all principals through optimized learning, collaborative leadership, networking, and service.

Read more about the KPA HERE.

Chapters (time stamps do not factor in the show's intro and will be about 30 second later than the noted time)

00:00 Introduction to the Interview Process
03:06 The Pre-Interview Strategy
05:56 Setting Up Interviews: New Approaches
09:02 Creating a Comfortable Interview Environment
11:58 Interview Dynamics: Questions and Icebreakers
18:06 Favorite Interview Questions and Their Importance
24:01 Identifying Red Flags in Interviews
31:27 Navigating Interview Dynamics
33:59 Involving Students in the Hiring Process
36:25 The Urgency of Reference Checks
39:48 Flexibility in Candidate Decision-Making
44:12 The Importance of Principal Engagement
51:55 Selling Your School to Candidates
56:40 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THIS SHOW (generated by AI)

Rick Sola (00:01.699)
Welcome to this special episode of Cool Coffee. I'm sitting here with an amazing panel of principals from across the state with many years of administrative experience, and we're going to talk about the interview process today. From the moment you make a decision to call a candidate in all the way through the recommendation, we're going to share our perspectives and methods to our own hiring madness. But first, let me introduce our panel. And panel, if you'll just respond with a hello and numbers of years and admin and then

Then we'll get started, but I am here with Mr. John Cannon, Ellsworth Jr. and Senior High from USD 327 and also the current KPA president. Hello, John.

John (00:42.701)
Hello everybody. I've got 12 years of administrative experience.

Rick Sola (00:47.859)
And we have Leslie Ann Kraft from Andover Central Middle School, USD 385, the former KPA president. Hello, Leslie Ann.

Leslianne Craft (00:57.773)
Hello, I have, this is my 14th year of administration.

Rick Sola (01:03.299)
And then I have Kelly Whitaker, Ottawa High School in USD 290. Hello, Kelly.

Kelly Whittaker (01:12.284)
Hello, this is my 13th year as a high school administrator.

Rick Sola (01:18.011)
And then Mr. Mike Wiley, California Trail Middle School, USD 233 in Olathe. Hello, Mike.

Mike Wiley (01:24.842)
Hello, as Rick said, my name is Mike. I've been an administrator for 18 years. Started with two of those at high school and then back to my love of middle school for the rest.

Rick Sola (01:38.209)
And then myself, 14 years in administration, nine of those as a principal. And I was going to keep a tally of how many years all that was to like have this grand announcement of so many years of administration interview experience and I wasn't keeping track of writing it down. But I know we have a lot of years between us and a lot of interview experience between all of us. So, you know, it's no exaggeration to say hiring is one of the most important things that we do. The impact that it can have on a building.

When it when you hit it's great and it can be so positive when you miss it can be Just a disaster sometimes if it's really bad And we've all probably we have enough years that we probably have seen it all on both sides of that so We're gonna start at the very beginning of the process 57 years John. Thank you. He wrote it all down. Thank goodness 57 years between all of us here. That's awesome

John (02:36.471)
You

Rick Sola (02:37.595)
So we're going to start at very beginning of process, at the very beginning of, you know, even before they are in the building. And that's kind of the goal of this episode is just to break down everything. you know, there's so many things that seem like very basic. Well, we want to bring someone in. Let's pick up the phone and call. I know there's a little bit of strategy that I have. know each of you have with even something as simple as that. So that's where we're going to start is at the very beginning of the process, the pre-interview, if you will.

And so John, I'll start with you. You have a position open. There's someone you want to bring in to interview, is it just you? Who do you involve in that process, and then how do you determine that?

Kelly Whittaker (03:16.835)
you

John (03:22.007)
Well, for me, typically, you know, I'm getting all of the applications from the district office. They've kind of already been gleaned and or or reviewed and then they're sent to me. For the most part, I'm the one who is reviewing the applications for my building. Every principal within our district does the same thing. And then from there, you know, I'm

you know this is my third year in this building but nine years previous I was just an elementary principal so I was by myself so I was that one man show but now with that you know often times I'll hand mine over to my assistant my assistant principal and he'll help me review and we'll kind of go through that but that's typically what we're looking at you know we're looking at the applications we're looking at experience we're looking at you know all the pertinent things experience

qualifications, their certification, you know, any type of reference that they have. We're kind of, we try to do all of that, which sometimes can be back-end work as a front-end work. So checking references and things like that. Because I think that ultimately saves us time. That's something we've had to really kind of change how we do things. Because as everyone knows, we're not getting as many applications for positions.

And so we've had to go, okay, if we're gonna call in a person for an interview and if we feel that we need to hire them, we need to ask them and be ready. So that way we already know who this person is and what kind of reference they have and things like that. So if we do feel that we need to offer that, then we do. Versus the old way where you're gonna do the interview and they're gonna trick references. That's typically how we had done things, but that's how we do things here.

Rick Sola (05:18.415)
And I'm kind of looking at the panel, but do any of you frequently involve your teachers in the process or your leads or other non-administrative staff members? I see Mike kind of nodding or Kelly.

Kelly Whittaker (05:31.206)
Yeah, absolutely. So I like what I heard John say. I think that the hiring process has changed dramatically over the last five years and we do a lot more of that front loading work and I will a lot of times ask my department chair maybe to reach out to maybe the middle school or the high school that this person might be coming from to talk to a couple colleagues as well as when I'm in that process of checking references. So we have all of that information.

and kind of already have a good feel as a team depending on how the interview goes, what direction we're going to land in. Because if we don't offer someone a job within minutes of them walking out the door, they may have five, six, seven other job offers, especially if it's a math teacher, a science teacher, a social studies teacher, a special education teacher, just some of those really hard to fill the areas.

Rick Sola (06:17.133)
So, Lesley Ann, you know, I mentioned at the top that, you know, something as mundane as just setting up an interview, could be an email, could be a call, could be from you, whatever. Is there an intentionality, like how do you set up your interviews? Do you make those calls? Does your assistant make the calls? How does that look?

Leslianne Craft (06:35.154)
It has transformed quite a bit in the last two years, actually. I have started to text the candidates and I get a very quick response. I don't know why I started doing that other than I was kind of a little frustrated, I guess, with calling and

leaving voicemails and not getting return and, and or having my secretary schedule in which, mean, that's a great, she's, she's a great resource to do that. But, they have a lot going on too in the main office. And so, trying to get that done can sometimes be a little grueling. So I, I just have started texting my candidates and it is amazing. They are a little bit more.

free to and get back with me sooner and They asked me questions so they can get a feel for what I'm looking for They might have salary questions and I can guide them to the website to look at our salary schedule So there's a lot of talking back and forth via text that me and a candidate will do up front and it's been it's been great Yeah, it's a good shift

John (07:38.958)
Huh.

Rick Sola (07:54.425)
Yeah, that's interesting. I have not ever texted, you know, to set up an initial communication. But you're right, because I think about some of the most frustrating times is when I've either left a voicemail or worse, the voicemail box is full, which grinds my gears a little bit. texting is probably a great way to reach, especially the younger teachers or

John (08:09.049)
Right?

Leslianne Craft (08:10.048)
Yep.

Rick Sola (08:23.565)
you know, it's just the way we communicate now. So yeah, interesting. Very good. Was somebody, go ahead.

John (08:28.196)
What do you, I'm sorry to ask, what do you ask them? Do you just say, hey, I'd like to have an interview with you and is that just the normal kind of thing or?

Kelly Whittaker (08:34.728)
Thank

Leslianne Craft (08:35.02)
This is Leslie Ann Kraft from Andover Central Middle School. I see that you're interested in our eighth grade ELA position. Would you be willing to come in for an interview? And then I give them a specific time and day or date or time range on a specific date. And they get, even if they have a job already or they are not interested anymore, they get back with me even on that so quickly.

Kelly Whittaker (09:02.664)
So it's interesting, it sounds like just the same thing you would say on the phone, you just start it with a text. Okay. Because I usually call and then I give them my cell phone number and tell them if you have any questions between now and then, do not hesitate to text me and a lot of them will and I'll end up answering some questions or getting them information but I never thought about that.

John (09:06.571)
Exactly. Yeah.

Leslianne Craft (09:07.734)
Yep, it's awesome.

Leslianne Craft (09:21.565)
I almost didn't do it because it's for me because I'm, I don't want to call it old school, but I guess maybe I am becoming more old school. It's not very personable, you know, not so I almost didn't start doing it, but I was like, you know, what do I have to lose? And it's been great.

Rick Sola (09:37.913)
Well, but you're right, though. I mean, that's that's the way people communicate and they're going to get that. And even if it's a call and a voicemail, then you follow up with the text like, hey, I left you a voicemail. I see you're interested and even, you know, hybrid. But you said old school. And that's what I think in my mind is like, it doesn't seem professional or, you know, that sort of thing. But that's how we got to reach our you know, we're two questions in and already a theme has come up, the word change and just a change in the process and that sort of thing. And

Leslianne Craft (09:53.983)
Yes.

Rick Sola (10:06.703)
that's huge. Kelly, screening processes, do you set up a screening process or a screening interview? Maybe a quick 10, 15 minutes or is that district led? Talk about the screening process.

Kelly Whittaker (10:18.994)
So yeah, we don't do that here at USD 290. We're a larger 4A school and kind of like John had talked about, we are responsible for all the hiring in our building, so we've got to monitor the applications that are coming in through Skyward and then it's our job to process through those, determine who we're going to call and schedule interviews with. More of my processing is really the screening is just doing all those reference checks ahead of time, getting my department leads to maybe call that school and reach out to a math teacher email, whatever that looks like.

So we get all that information together. I have been in a larger district where we did have a screening interview where one of the assistant principals would do a screening interview with candidates. They would have to have a certain score on that in order to get to the next round. And honestly, I was thinking about that the other day leading up to this. If we had to do that right now in 2025, I don't think I would ever have a candidate because I don't know that we could move quick enough with four other people's job offers coming down the pike.

So we don't do anything like that. It's really just me getting a feel for them like Leslie Ann said, calling, texting with them, getting the interview set up, and then really getting them in here and figuring out if they're gonna be a good fit for our students.

Rick Sola (11:28.985)
That actually leads kind of nicely into the next question, Mike, is, you know, there's so many like little nuances that you can pick up. I mean, we're trying to evaluate a person and if they're going to be a fit with kids, with our colleagues, with parents, and even just a text exchange, you probably get a decent sense, at least in some communication. Let's say we get the candidate in. Mike, I know you've got some intentional maneuvers. That sounds kind of, I don't know what, but like some things that you do.

Mike Wiley (11:55.775)
you

John (11:56.117)
Hahaha

Rick Sola (11:58.535)
that are kind of intentional when they do arrive to your building. But talk about that, kind of the before they're in your office sitting down, what do you do?

Mike Wiley (12:08.478)
So sure, I appreciate that. I value my admin assistants perspective a great deal. And they're the face of our building. They're doing so much for us. I will.

know, most of our candidates are showing up five, 10 minutes early. Even if they show up on time, I want them to have some time in that front office where my receptionist can have a little bit of a conversation with them, get that feel. Do they want to enter into that conversation? Are they treating those folks as an equal? Are they into their phone and not paying attention as it's a passing period?

or not looking at kids. And if there are kids come into the office, are they interacting with those students and those kind of things? I give our office staff just a sheet of paper with the person. If we're having multiple interviews, I've got all the people's names on the left side. I'm asking them, what do you like about this person? What were they doing while kids were in the office? And some of those kind of things. Because number one, they

They like getting to know new people and it's a great opportunity for folks to be a little bit more laid back with someone and I get a perspective from them that maybe the folks that are in the interview asking specific questions about instruction and those kind of things are not seeing that perspective. So that's another piece to help determine between candidate A and candidate B.

for us.

Rick Sola (13:55.183)
You know, we tell people, know, especially those who I've mentored, looking, seeking administration, you know, I always say, you're always interviewing, you know, especially if you're in the district you're interviewing for, you know, built your reputation based on how you carry yourself from day to day, but it's also a good reminder for candidates, you're always interviewing, you walk in the building, you're on, you know, and so there is so much there. So Mike, I'm gonna continue with you, but.

You know, kind of from that moment and kind of an initial icebreaker. I've heard different schools of thought. I know and I've been in different interviews where you walk in and it almost feels intentionally very business, almost stuffy to those who really want to go out of their way to make it casual, comfortable. And I don't, you know, I think it's a personal preference in what you're wanting to achieve here. But Mike, talk about

what you try to achieve is like maybe an initial icebreaker, kind of your launch into the interview.

Mike Wiley (14:58.014)
So I'll come up to the front office and grab a candidate and welcome back, introduce myself, those kind of things. As I'm walking into the room, I'll do something to make a joke with one of the other folks on the interview panel or make a joke about something that was going on in the office as we're going in. But I really want to set that tone that, hey, this is a building that we like to have fun.

We know each other as people. We know each other as colleagues as well, but that personal connection and being able to laugh and be yourself is real important to us. And I want that feel for our candidates because I want them to relax, right? I talk to them about, as we go through this interview, we're going to bounce questions around, but I really want, if it brings up a question in your mind, don't wait till the end.

you know, ask that question now. We're a laid back group. We work in middle school. We're a little quirky. We're a little odd, you know, or we wouldn't be in a middle school. And so that just sets the tone as to, hey, relax, be yourself. I always have a bottle of water for them, you know, and I even maybe make the joke of, hey, if we ever give you a really tough question, don't be afraid. Take that bottle of water. Take a little drink. You know, buy yourself some time.

John (15:56.217)
you

John (16:02.721)
Ha ha.

Mike Wiley (16:25.67)
Ask us to repeat, you know, all those things are totally fine. And, you know, with that, I'm also wanting to portray, hey, we're here to coach you. We want the best out of you. It doesn't have to be the perfect answer that we're looking for. We want to know, you know, that you're, know you a little bit more as well. So try to set that.

John (16:27.597)
Yep.

Rick Sola (16:48.963)
So whether you're in line with what Mike does or even a little different, that either of you, any of the rest of you would add that you intentionally do kind of between the walk from the chair to the interview office, whatever.

John (17:06.829)
Sometimes it depends upon the time. Like if we have back to back interviews, then, you know, I do pretty much the same thing as Mike. I try to make the environment light, offer them water, really explain to them, you know, when they sit down at the table, this is just us getting to know you and seeing if it's a good fit for you and for us. But if I have time, typically what I do is I'll take them on a tour of the campus. And if I, you know,

I sometimes I do that before, sometimes I do it after, but that's something, a wrinkle that I generally do because, you know, being a bigger campus or the biggest campus in our district, I at want them to see. And I always generally try to show them the room or at least referencing the room that they'll be in so they have like a context of going, okay, I know I'm going to be in this really long, super long hall. So that's, again, very much very, very, very similar to what Mike does.

Rick Sola (18:06.319)
So Kelly, as far as questioning goes, assuming you're in there with at least one other person, maybe more, how strategic are you with the questions that you get to ask versus the person that's in there with you? Is it important to you that your teacher asks a certain question or do you just kind of every other and just kind of go around the horn?

Kelly Whittaker (18:28.624)
Yeah, I tend to do more just around Robin style. Typically at the end, like I try to ask like the last question we always ask people, why should we hire you? You know, just to me, that's important. Just kind of that culminating. Why is it that we should bring you here to Ottawa High School? We do a similar to Mike, try to make it as conversational as possible and is not not stuffy. And we want the person to feel comfortable so we can see their best self. And I stress to my interview committee, probably more now than I ever have, that we are selling ourselves to this person.

just as much as they're trying to sell themselves to us. And I overemphasize that with teachers before the interview starts. But we tend to just kind of go around Ron Robbins style and there's no rhyme or reason to who's asking what question. And I don't know, we've always found that we get good information from candidates and can make good choices.

Rick Sola (19:17.563)
So that leads into, and I'm really interested in this, because I'm hoping to steal some questions, but favorite interview question and why. I'm sure we all have probably multiple that we make sure are part of our list of questions. But Leslie Ann, starting with you, do you have a favorite interview question and why is it your favorite?

Leslianne Craft (19:41.554)
I have a few, but the one that I want to touch on here is what support do you need, what support do you want or need from your principal or administration and how much, and what can we expect of them regarding what they expect of us. I just.

I love all the other, like, what are your strengths and that, but I really like that back and forth, like, what support do they need from us? And then again, being able to ask what support we're going to need from them really goes into the expectations for both the school, for them as a teacher and then for us as the leaders.

Rick Sola (20:29.935)
John, do you have a favorite interview question?

John (20:32.407)
Yeah, I do. It's usually my final question and it's really, really hard. And I do that because I want to see, I don't put a lot of weight to it, but for me, I want them to think critically. And I always ask, why should I hire you over the other candidates who share the same, no, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, that was the wrong one. As you leave this interview, tell us in a sentence or less how we can remember you.

And so really that's, it's more of a, I want to see what they say. It really has no value. And I've tell that to the rest of the interview panel is it really has no value. I just want to see what they say about themselves. And I think that, cause that really kind of tells you who that person is on the spot. And I really, I do preface kind of what Mike had said is take some time, think about this. This is a hard one because you're really thinking about yourself because you've been talking about your practice and your leadership and all these other things.

but what about you? What do you say about you? And how can we remember you? And it's been, I've got really entertaining answers to like, I don't know what to say. So it really, again, and I know if you really wanna have focus, and we have focus questions throughout the rest of the interview, that one's more like that weird HR question. But I really wanna just see why. Who do they think they are?

Rick Sola (21:46.107)
You

John (22:02.297)
And then why should we remember you?

Rick Sola (22:05.007)
Yeah, I'm picturing the deer in the headlight look and I'm thinking at least it's the last question. You can wrap it up and, because when it's like the second question and you're like, boy, this might be a long one. Kelly, is there one that you make sure is on your list?

John (22:08.301)
Yeah.

Kelly Whittaker (22:20.56)
Yeah, I like to kind John. guess this is a hard question too, but we pride ourselves and being innovative and we have a lot of CTE programs with in our building and we really want to see a lot of cross curricular activities. So we like to ask teachers or teaching candidates. What does it mean to be a 21st century teacher and how are the needs of students different than when you were in school? And we really like that question because we want to.

It gives them an opportunity to tell us how they might be creative and a little innovative within their classroom space and really gives us an idea to like, are they in tune to what a learner in 2024 needs versus a learner that needed, what learners needed in 2010. So we get some really cool answers. A lot of people stop and pause and they'll ask us to repeat it or they'll ask for a minute to really think about it. But that's one of our favorite questions that we ask that's probably a little bit different and outside the box from.

your typical normal interview questions.

Rick Sola (23:18.649)
Yeah, Mr. Wiley.

Mike Wiley (23:20.798)
gosh, I'm sitting here writing down things. I love these. Mine are pretty boring probably. You know, I always, I wrap up with a couple of them at the end again.

Kind of a play on the strengths and weaknesses I talk about. We all have those. I want to hear something that you're average at currently that you want to be a strength in two to three years. And again, it's not the strength, it's not the weakness. I want to hear something that you're okay at. They think a little bit, they tell me what it is, and then I ask them, what have you done in the last six months to improve in that area? I want to hear the reflective.

I want to hear that they're being proactive and trying to get better with that as well. I don't really care what the content is, what it is that they feel like they want to improve on. I want to hear whether they can pick that out in themselves and then are they actively seeking improvement in that area. The other one is that I typically always end with is

Why do you feel a position at California Trail is the best fit for you? And I want to hear about my building. We put out a ton of things like you guys all do. I know on Twitter and Facebook and some of those kind of things. And we're putting out the things that we're proud of. There's all kinds of information about all of our buildings online. I want to hear that they know a little bit about our building as opposed to...

John (24:36.046)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (24:53.083)
Thanks

Mike Wiley (24:58.353)
Rick's building or John's building or those kind of things so that they've they've done a little bit of homework

Rick Sola (25:04.569)
Yeah, that's always a good sign when they speak specifically to your building. And Mike, we're in a district that spreads, know, in Olathe, it's a bigger area. know, when I hear, you know, you're just so close to my house. You know, that's not really the number one reason I'm looking to hire people. And I hear that sometimes. And it's amazing sometimes what candidates do to hurt themselves. But, you know, I'll just add a question. This is not

It's the most basic, almost like HR question, but I think the typical question is like three words to describe yourself. I've always asked five. And it's funny because I usually get a reaction like, my gosh, five. I get so many. And the answer is really, I'm looking for answers, but one of reasons I ask it is I always write those down to follow up with references. And I always say, this candidate described themselves with these words. Would you agree with that?

John (25:55.257)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Sola (25:59.323)
But I'll always ask Candid to expand on at least one of those, you know, but it's interesting more on the reference side of are they accurately describing themselves and, you know, kind of to that reflection piece that Mike mentioned. Another thing, and I'm curious if any of you use scenarios, put a, personally I'll put a, usually at least one, maybe two scenario questions in an interview. Is that something that you include in your process?

And if so, how effective do you think it is and what does that look like?

Kelly Whittaker (26:35.024)
I tend to do that more for my assistant principals when I'm interviewing like assistant principals or instructional coaches. For my teaching candidates, I have not necessarily put that as part of the repertoire of the interviewing. But I do for some of those other more like counselors, instructional coaches, assistant principals, where I just need to kind of get a feel for how they might handle certain situations where they got to prioritize time or, you know, they've got 19 things on their to-do list, but we have four crises that pop up kind of what

John (26:40.857)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Whittaker (27:03.656)
How are they going to react and respond?

Mike Wiley (27:06.388)
That's really good, Kelly. The same thing. I do it more for the more unique roles. Like if you're going to work in our office, I always ask, hey, OK, it's 2.45. School gets out at 3.20. You're, for some reason, you're the only one up front. Of course, the phone's ringing with the parent wanting to ask a question or get in touch with someone. You've got a custodian.

needed up in the office because maintenance is here to fix something. You've got a an attendance report that an assistant principal needs and you've got a student that forgot their locker combination. That never happens in middle school, but that forgot their locker combination. Now what and I put him on note cards and I slide the cards in front of him and say what do you handle when or how do you? How do you handle these things? And I don't care what order they do it.

Kelly Whittaker (27:48.882)
Yeah

Mike Wiley (28:02.59)
I want to hear customer service, right? And I am interested in, I hope they put the administrator to the last, right? And they take care of the people in front of them. But that scenario has been a real telling one for Office Staff.

Rick Sola (28:18.297)
You know, one thing I have done kind of to Kelly's point with maybe my counselors or admin candidates is I'll give them a writing sample. We'll finish the interview. We'll walk out and I'll have a laptop set up and, you know, and basically give the scenario of I'd like to share you as a new hire with our community. Please write a little blurb about yourself and introduce yourself to the community. And it's amazing how that can be a little bit of a separation. People can talk and present differently.

And then especially if it's a job with a lot of writing, you you get a different type of sense or even, you know, office staff where I might have them make a flyer and I'll say, hey, we have fifth graders coming up. Can you put a flyer together just on the spot? That's part of the interview. And depending on what I need or looking for, that could be kind of a separator. So I'm going to transition here to when the interview is not going well versus when the interview is going well.

Kelly Whittaker (29:00.956)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (29:17.336)
But I'll start, Kelly, with you, the biggest interview turnoffs for you.

Kelly Whittaker (29:24.466)
think you named one earlier, kind of when the first question we always ask is tell us a little bit about yourself and more importantly, why do you want to be a math teacher at Ottawa High School or whatever that is. And really we're looking for why do you want to be at Ottawa High School. And when you tell me that it's a less of a lesser commute from your house or maybe in that answer you dog your other school district or the building you were in and I'm looking for, you know, a place that's more friendly or whatever that looks like. I think it's just.

John (29:42.745)
Thank

Kelly Whittaker (29:53.016)
It's really important for candidates to be careful how they answer that question because they want to be obviously honest about whatever their journey is but being professional and if you don't know anything about our school at all like you haven't even looked up the bell schedule we have a lot of really unique aspects about Ottawa High School so if you go to our website you're going to come figure out a few things about us pretty quickly and we can always tell when candidates haven't even put two

two ounces of time into learning about our space. So I think that turns us off the most, because partly because we're prideful and we're proud about what we do for kids and we want to have other people get on our team that are ready to do those things for our students.

Rick Sola (30:31.491)
Yeah. Leslieann, how about you?

Leslianne Craft (30:33.463)
I would agree with what Kelly said. I just really feel like they need to have some good working knowledge of why they want to work in our building. And like she said, there's a lot of ways these days to find out information about every building. so if they seem disinterested or just have canned responses.

It's a big turn off. Most of the time we have several interviews going on and when you have canned answers, it's just, it's a turn off. The attention wanders. We want to have good inspired answers.

Rick Sola (31:21.531)
Does your team know your tells when you're sitting there in the interview? Like, okay.

Leslianne Craft (31:26.396)
my. You're asking the wrong person because I don't fix my face. You all have been around me. Yeah, I try to fix my face. But they can tell. mean, just yeah, my tone or my tone or I don't make a lot of eye contact.

John (31:27.577)
you

Kelly Whittaker (31:47.484)
Sometimes when it gets to my turn, I'll skip a couple questions and we'll end up on question 10 and people in the room are like, okay. You know, like they just are. I'm just feeling like we don't need to probably ask too many more questions. I don't like to be, I had a boss one time that was a, he did the pencil drop trick and if he dropped his pen, like we were done and he was gonna wrap things up and be gone. And I don't know, to me, I also don't want a candidate to walk out of an interview with us and never say anything negative about the experience that they had.

John (32:00.355)
Yeah.

Kelly Whittaker (32:17.532)
So I at least will just, to me if we skip some questions, they have no idea that we're skipping questions. And then we can give them maybe a shorter tour at the end or whatever we have involved. But I don't want to be disrespectful to anybody either. But I think that unfortunately sometimes you're in an interview and you're like, okay, this is not going to work out at all for whatever reason.

John (32:22.489)
Right.

Rick Sola (32:38.393)
Well, and the reality is too, a lot of times you're on a really big time crunch and you might have multiple candidates and I'm sure we've all had the candidate yes, you know, tell me a little bit about yourself. And then 25 minutes later, you know, you haven't even gotten to the next question. You've got to wrap it up and you know, you kind of learned all you needed to learn there. Mike, how about you?

Mike Wiley (33:00.414)
So you just mentioned exactly what I say. I try to prep them as much as I can that, we've got 45 minutes block for the interview, maybe a 15 minute tour at the front end or back end. But when their first couple answers end up going 10 minutes apiece, it's like, and I will tell them that we have a dozen questions or we'll have 10 to 12 questions, those kind of things. Definitely have skipped questions like Kelly.

Leslianne Craft (33:13.971)
you

Mike Wiley (33:29.952)
alluded to and those kind of things. So that's pretty similar.

Rick Sola (33:33.733)
So I'm to jump ahead a little bit. Some of this we've gotten to as far as including building tours or not. How common is it that you have a second or third interview process? Or maybe and or do you ever include a lesson? Do you ever have a candidate come in and, hey, we're going to teach a lesson for a class if they're far down the line?

Kelly Whittaker (33:59.496)
So we don't do second or third interviews typically, but one unique thing we do that any of my co-curricular activity teachers like choir band, maybe if I'm hiring a football coach or I'm hiring a teacher who might be my debate coach as well, we try to include our students. So sometimes I've had my students organized where we've come up with like four, help them develop like three or four questions that they're gonna ask.

each candidate, like we did that for my ag teacher one time. So they got an opportunity to be with that teacher and they got to ask some student friendly questions and get a little insight and get some feedback from them. I try to always have a students do the tour. I think that they just have a lot of insight that they can give me at the end of that tour about, did the candidate talk to them? Did they talk to them only about things that are happening on television and didn't even ask them questions about the high school?

I've had band and choir teachers do some conducting of the kids just because that is always a piece that students want to know how does that band teacher going to conduct our class. And so I have done that before, but I try to involve students a lot. And that is something that has really involved over the last three years. And I get a lot of really positive feedback from candidates and they're like, wow, I've never had students interview me and ask me questions or intentionally take me around the building.

Leslianne Craft (35:12.089)
.

Kelly Whittaker (35:22.638)
And also I think that's a way for us to sell ourselves, right? Let's put our best students in front of them so they can see what they're gonna be interacting with every day as well.

John (35:30.073)
you

Rick Sola (35:31.001)
Yeah, that's excellent. You know, I was thinking too about that tour. Every so often we'll be walking around and a candidate will see like a piece of trash on the floor and they'll pick it up and throw it away. I'm like, that's a good thing. I like seeing that. And it's, you know, it seems very genuine or second nature and it's, is the little thing. Sometimes that could be a separation. Let's move to you like the candidate. You want to make a recommendation.

Leslianne Craft (35:39.099)
Yeah.

John (35:43.225)
you

Rick Sola (35:56.323)
And this actually came up at the beginning and this goes back to maybe the changing climate. Like we got to act on it. There's urgency. We know they've got four interviews that week or whatever. With the reference checks being so critical, when do those occur? And John, I'll start with you, but when do those occur? Are you looking to make a recommendation like on the spot or is it going to be, hey, thank you. We'll be in touch. And then, and then you try to get on with references right away.

John (36:25.753)
It really depends upon the situation and it depends upon the position. if it's, I'm just going to say this. we're in North Central Kansas. For most of you, that's Western Kansas. But we're not, we're in the middle of the state. There's a whole lot of state to the West, but needless to say, we're a small school. And so the number of candidates that we get has significantly dropped. If we, let's say, banned,

Mike Wiley (36:38.176)
you

John (36:53.909)
If we have three candidates, we're actually feeling like, okay, we've got choice. Whereas like trying to find a biology teacher or a chemistry teacher, the thought of a second interview is ridiculous. There is no second. For people in small schools and ours, we have to move because perfect example, like last year, my band teacher, he had four other offers, four.

And I have never pitched our school as hard as I possibly could to get him, you know, because it is a buyer's market. It is not. It is completely changed, and I have to say that. So for all of our small school principals, I feel ya, there is no idea. For us, it depends upon that. So like, for instance, when we have our team, usually it's myself, my assistant principal,

my CTE coordinator, a counselor, one of our counselors, and then probably both, or if it's like an ELA position, both or all three of our ELA positions, or two of them. And that's the panel. So it's a pretty big panel, but I try to front load them in saying, all right, if we look at this, I need to have feedback immediately, because if they're walking out the door, or if people give me body language like,

get this guy or get this person. It'll be walking out the door and I walk with them to their car and saying, hey, we really feel that you're gonna be a good fit for us. We'd like you to join our team. But it depends. But if we also have a point where it's just been an okay interview, then we do the normal. Hey, we'll give you a call. You'll be hearing from us in the next week or how many ever days and we'll let you know. And so it just depends. So for us,

The urgency is completely different. When I started 12 years ago, I had 28 applications for a music teacher at the elementary level. And now, before I left, I hired one and I had two. And so that was just a nine year difference. So it really comes back down to the reality. I know for all of you, except me, you all live in a metropolitan area or have access to a metropolitan area.

John (39:18.681)
And so that's you guys, I had to say it is you probably feel a little bit of what I'm dealing with, but it's critical. And if we want to really learn something, and I'm to bird walk real fast, if we really want to learn something from hiring process, we need to learn from our friends in the western, in the west side of the state, because they got their poop in a group. They understand what they're doing and they have made incentives and they have done an excellent job getting people. And I even know they still have a hard time. So.

Kelly Whittaker (39:47.237)
and

John (39:48.471)
I think the thing for me in this question, Rick, is it comes back down to urgency and the number of candidates. That's really what it comes back down to. But we try to front load everything. I try to say this is a candidate that we have got really good reference on. If we feel that as a team, as a hiring panel, that they are going to work, then I really take the recommendation and I go forward with that.

Rick Sola (40:00.453)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (40:15.419)
Lesi Ann, going to you as far as references go, is that a personal phone call from you or is it an email form that gets filled out, both? Are you required to get some things in?

Leslianne Craft (40:26.899)
Yeah, so the expectation from the district is that we are required to document two reference checks and I make phone call on those. And if I can't get a hold of the reference, I will send an email but ask them to in the email to call me. So I always like to do it over the phone. And again, you you have to move move with the sense of urgency to make sure that you.

get it documented and can offer that candidate. I try to do as much front loading as possible like they talked about prior to is just kind of looking at references, having folks that know people in that building, ask some questions. So try to do a little bit of front loading there.

Mike Wiley (41:13.03)
I'm going to jump in real quick, Rick. This is where Leslie Ann talked about if I'm not contacting someone very quickly or even when I start to make those phone calls, I will text the candidate and say, hey, I'm getting ready to do reference checks.

Would you, do you mind reaching out, texting your references and letting them know, hey, you're going to be getting a call. And that's been good in both getting the response quick, but it also lets the candidate know, hey, I'm very interested. You know, I know the references need to come through, but I'm interested and I'm working towards moving you. And it kind of gives them that sense of, know, hey, this is a good thing. And I've received good feedback from them on that.

John (41:34.871)
Mmm.

Leslianne Craft (41:36.305)
Mm.

Kelly Whittaker (41:39.602)
good.

John (41:40.396)
Yeah.

Kelly Whittaker (41:59.464)
school.

John (42:00.121)
To make sure I heard you clearly, Mike, you said you text the candidate, hey, talk to your references to contact me.

Mike Wiley (42:05.612)
No, I say, hey, let your references know that I'm going to be calling so it doesn't go straight to voicemail or, you know, they at least anticipate, hey, I'm going to get this today. So it just gives them a heads up and lets the candidate know that they're very much in the process still.

John (42:10.905)
Perfect.

Rick Sola (42:23.823)
Now that's a really good, cause that's over the years probably some of the most frustration, biggest frustrating parts of it and kind of to Leslie Anne's point is, we are required to have so many references and when you're waiting on that, it can stall the process. You lose out on that candidate, but then you've also lost out on the other, the second and third choice. So I was going to ask each of you, what's your timeframe? Candidate wants to think about it. How long you going to wait?

Kelly Whittaker (42:40.7)
Yes.

Kelly Whittaker (42:49.146)
I will tell you Rick, I love that question because that is something that has changed as well. And look, like I can't get mad at you if you need a couple days. If you need two or three days anymore, like I'd love for you to tell me before I get off the phone with you, but if you tell me, hey Mrs. Whitaker, I'd love to take your auto job, but I need a couple days to think about it. I'm like, great, can we follow up on Friday? Or like I'll figure out a timeframe and I'll say, I'll reach back out to you because I need to reach back out to them and know.

And I also say that because unfortunately, this is like when I've been hiring a Spanish teacher, a chemistry teacher, an industrial tech teacher, an auto teacher, and I only have that candidate, right? Maybe I have one other candidate, but I'm willing to wait because they probably have three other interviews and they want to see what those other schools have to offer. So I'm more flexible in that. I don't even think that I can have a hardcore mindset on that. The other thing that I've been telling principals that I've been mentoring through Kelly Institute and some other organizations is

I feel like now more than ever the hiring process is so important and I am very hands-on in the hiring process because I keep getting told by my teachers that I've hired and other teaching candidates when I talk with them that they're taking jobs because of the principal, right? Because they want to work for you and then they want to be a part of that culture and climate in your building. So just as much as they want their colleagues to be amazing humans, they're also wanting to know are you the type of boss that I want to work for?

John (43:46.713)
you

Leslianne Craft (44:00.045)
Thank

Kelly Whittaker (44:12.848)
and I am very hands-on and probably a little bit more intense about it than maybe some think I need to be. But I also know that I have filled some very, very hard to fill positions with some amazing teachers because I've taken those extra moments to go above and beyond. And they've said like, wow, like you followed up with me within two hours of my text message or you did this and this other principal, I couldn't get them to get a hold of me for a day to answer my questions. And so I just share that because I do think

Leslianne Craft (44:25.841)
Okay.

Kelly Whittaker (44:42.072)
our responsibility as instructional leaders in the interviewing process. It's intense. And we have got to be on top of our A game when we're out there looking to fill our spots with high quality people for our students. So I am very intense with the hiring process and very hands on.

Rick Sola (44:57.743)
You know, and I totally agree with that. You know, give them the time they need. And at the same time, internally, it's so stressful hiring because that urgency, I want to move. I don't let the grass grow very long on a position that's open. I want to get going. But then it's like, sure, you can take another day to think about it. You know, and if you really want that person, you think there can't, or you don't have a large pool or any pool or whatever the case may be.

Leslianne Craft (45:06.478)
Okay.

Rick Sola (45:27.683)
No, absolutely.

Kelly Whittaker (45:28.04)
Do you guys find yourselves? I always think when that happens and I text my boss and he's like, it's okay, they're gonna take the job. I find myself over the last three years, the excitement that I get when someone tells me yes. Do you all feel that? I get so excited, I'll fist bump in my office and I am like, yes, we got that filled finally. But I don't remember feeling that way 13 years ago all the time, right? But I feel that way more now than I probably ever have.

John (45:40.141)
Yes.

Leslianne Craft (45:40.362)
Yes. Yes.

Mike Wiley (45:41.877)
Yes.

Kelly Whittaker (45:56.964)
and being a leader. And so I think that's important for us all to reflect on with other leaders as we're all just the hiring process has changed dramatically. And I think that I've very much enjoyed this hearing your guys's pros and cons and how you handle the process because we need to learn from each other and we need to steal each other's tips and tricks to try to get the best teachers for our students.

Leslianne Craft (46:06.82)
Okay.

Leslianne Craft (46:16.589)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (46:21.049)
Well, and I had a note, I meant to mention this earlier, probably this comment will fit better in the previous earlier in the conversation, but kind of that that biggest turn off when candidates will say something that's just you can it's just kind of a backhand something toward their previous employer. I don't think people realize how small the education community is and how how often we have each other's candidates or we have each other's colleagues and

I don't want to hear how you think negatively about, know, make it positive and so forth. And kind of to that point, if we learn from each other, you we can be a part of that growth from each other. But candidates need to realize like, look, we are kind of colleagues together in all of this and we may pick up the phone. I may have somebody from Andover move into Kansas City and I need to make a call and like, you know, I want somebody in the building that I think is going to be a champion of the building.

John (47:19.737)
Thank

Rick Sola (47:19.865)
what better way for me to know that than if you're champion in the building you're coming from.

Leslianne Craft (47:23.328)
Yep.

John (47:23.587)
That's a turn off for me. mean, I know I didn't answer that question, but that's one of those things is if you start talking negatively and you perseverate on your situation, yeah, you're searching for something that's gonna be better and you feel that you're gonna be a good fit for this position, but if you come back in your answers as an interviewee or as a candidate, that you keep going back to the negative things of...

of your previous or your current position or the administration or whatever, you're exactly right Rick. And that's like, to me is like, I don't, if you're wanting to change, that's fine. You have that right and that's what everyone, everyone goes through that and does that. But if you're so focused on that, I think it's like when you start to make, and this is just my idea, if you start to think that you're going to look for a different job because of your situation, whether it's hostile or it's just not a good fit or whatever it is,

In my mindset, you can't perseperate on that past because you're trying to move forward. And if you don't and we rehire you, you're gonna bring that same negativity to here. And I think you look for it. And that's not necessarily, that's a really broad swath sweep, but I look at that because I've been bit by that. And so I've had people who've come in and they've just, and so they're just looking for the negative, they're looking for the bad. And I'd rather have those people who are like,

I need a new start or I need to freshen up on whatever I need. I need something new and that's okay. But back to the urgency thing for me real fast and I'm sorry. What I found is and specifically for us in our position again is with our younger kids, our kids that are coming right out of school, at least for me, is they come in and the first question they ask is,

what am I gonna be able to do in Ellsworth, all right? We're isolated, we're in the beautiful Smokey Hills, we're 35 minutes away from Ellsworth, we're just a short drive, about three hours from Kansas City, so we're able to get there, but their question is what am gonna do as a person here, and that's really hard, and in fact, I lost three candidates that way because they're like, I just wanna be closer to...

John (49:42.275)
They won't say but civilization, their friends and bigger places. And that's really hard because what happens is they generally try, they milk me along because I'm calling and say, hey, I'm giving them that freedom to say, I need time, I need time. Okay, that's fine. And finally it just gets to the point where I'm like, okay, you've got to give me an answer. And it's okay if you say no, I just need to know so that I can move on with the hiring process.

Rick Sola (50:02.17)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (50:07.279)
Yeah. Mike, it looks like you were loading up to say something.

John (50:10.009)
you

Mike Wiley (50:10.962)
No, I'm loving all this. I 100 % agree. The idea of giving a candidate some time, I verbalize, hey, you know, I want you to go and I want you to talk about it. If it's someone young, I want you to talk about it with your parents. I want you to talk about it with your significant other, your spouse, whatever it may be, because we're not just hiring you, we're hiring your family. we...

John (50:30.873)
Absolutely.

Kelly Whittaker (50:35.784)
Mm-hmm. A point.

Mike Wiley (50:36.614)
We I want that to be a priority for you and I want them to know that that that's something that I value as well, right? You know, if I got hit by a bus today, my job would be would be advertised tomorrow, right? So I better be doing the doing the things at home to keep those relationships good. I want my candidates doing the same thing. Want them to come in and work their tail off while they're in our building. But.

John (51:05.049)
you

Mike Wiley (51:06.144)
I want them to have that time to make sure it's the right fit as well. I say all that, but I say, can you do it quickly? that we can do that. give them that balance of, yes, I want you to do that. But I also want to work with you to say, what is the timeline going to be to do that?

Rick Sola (51:10.043)
.

Leslianne Craft (51:14.488)
Yeah.

John (51:14.619)
Hahaha

Kelly Whittaker (51:15.504)
No.

Rick Sola (51:15.579)
Yeah.

Rick Sola (51:26.683)
And that's the real, that's the reality too. It's not personal if you don't want to come here. I say the same thing if you need to leave and you have a fresh start somewhere. It's not personal. Please in my head, I'm thinking, please be quick about this so we can, we gotta, we gotta move on. So just the very last bit here and just in the interest of time and maybe, you know, try to condense this to maybe a 30 second blurb, but candidates will oftentimes finish with their question of why, why should I want to work in your building?

or work for you or whatever, in a sentence or less, to use John's words earlier, how do you answer that question? And I'll let each of you go, and I'm just gonna go in the order of the screen I'm looking at. So Leslie Ann, you're at the top left of my screen. How do you answer that?

Leslianne Craft (52:09.977)
Nice. I talk about the positive culture in my school there because I don't want to take a lot of time to answer this question. I talk about all of the things that we do to make our school great. I want to go back to Kelly, what she said about people want to work for a good principle. They want to work for someone who has structure. They want to work for somebody that has is organized and is a good leader. I see that more and more.

So I don't talk about myself, but I talk about how I essentially talk about the culture and that's totally been done by my leadership.

Rick Sola (52:49.893)
Kelly, how about you?

Kelly Whittaker (52:51.426)
I always ask my teachers that are in the room to respond to that first because I can obviously, hopefully I'm completely obsessed with my school because I'm leading it, but I want them to hear from my teachers before they hear from me. So I let my teachers in the room answer that question first and then I might add something at the end if I feel like it's appropriate because I don't want the candidate to think that there's nothing about this school that I enjoy. But I always like my teachers to answer that question first and tell them the things that they.

appreciate about our culture and our climate or the things that they do within their department or whatever that looks like.

Rick Sola (53:25.477)
Great, Mike.

Mike Wiley (53:26.88)
You know, we're in the people business and we deal with humans and we help make humans better, hopefully.

John (53:31.961)
you

Mike Wiley (53:33.476)
And so I talk about the connections, the connections between our staff, the connections our staff and students have, the connections that we have with our parents. ultimately, we, you know, if you're, if you are connected to the people that you work with, you'll enjoy it. I talk about the different ways that our staff members, you know, are connected outside of school, whether that's bunco, volleyball, know, sand volleyball team, whether it's the book club that's going on.

all the different TGIF opportunities and those kind of things. I talk about that we're a group of people that want to spend time together, not only at school, but outside. And that is why I keep coming back to this building every day. And I hope others feel the same.

Rick Sola (54:22.351)
John?

John (54:23.885)
I do the exact same thing that Kelly does. I let the teachers answer that. In fact, they actually like that because they want to tell them why, why we want to be here. you know, it's, it's, is the culture, you know, we've been working really hard and I know for like a lot of people, COVID was difficult for a lot of staffs. There was a lot of turnover and things like that, but the staff that we have now is, it, it was a good core at the beginning. Now we've made it even better. And so I let them answer it.

They explain why about the culture and the community and the support that we receive not only from each other but also from the community and just that's the best way to sell it in my opinion. And then I'll throw in my two cents about that. But really it's about them. I give them that opportunity. They're the best salesmen for that. I think that's really what

honestly that's what people are looking for in my opinion is they're looking for that confirmation and or that that barometer from this from the staff because if the staffers like you know people are gonna be like I don't know about this place but if they're coming back and saying we love this this this this this and they can rattle all those things off you know it's going to be a good place to work

Rick Sola (55:34.628)
Right.

Rick Sola (55:44.357)
Well, want to wrap this up, but I want to first just thank each of you for dedicating this hour of time to talk to the listeners of KPA and this podcast and really sharing a lot of valuable information about a part of our jobs that are so critical and has changed over the years. And we touched on all that, but we know how important it is to bring in good candidates to work with our kids, to work within our communities.

And so thank you so much for taking the time. I didn't mention this, but it's December 20th as we are recording this. Almost all of us, think, have had our students dismissed for the break here. And it's such a busy time. So thank you for committing this time here. Looking forward for everybody else to hear this. And thank you for all the great work that you do in your communities and for being a part of something that.

hopefully is getting listened to across the state because I only think it's making every one of us better. And just like Mike mentioned earlier, taking notes and stealing ideas, that's what this is all about. And the connections once again through KPA that I've made. I've known Mr. Wiley for a while here in Olathe, but Kelly, John, Leslie Ann, I've been able to meet you and connect with you through KPA and it's just been so, valuable. once again, just want to thank you all and we'll sign off and I want to wish you

Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. Of course, as you're listening to this, it's already New Year, so hopefully it's off to good start. And we have a great second semester, so thank you so much.

Mike Wiley (57:19.946)
Thank you, Rick.

Leslianne Craft (57:20.616)
Thank you.

John (57:20.857)
Thanks, Rick.

Kelly Whittaker (57:20.87)
Thank you, Rick.

Mike Wiley (57:23.23)
And John.